David Coleman is known nationwide as The Dating Doctor. He has been honored thirteen times as The National Speaker of the Year- 10 times by Campus Activities Magazine and 3 times by The National Association for Campus Activities. He recently won Speaker Of The Year again for 2010! He is a highly sought after speaker, author, entertainer, radio and television personality.
Mostly though, he’s friends with AJ & Jordan and stopped by to kick it with us while doing a couple gigs in California. Of course, we hit record and chopped up some solid advice for your listening pleasure.
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Jordan Harbinger has always had an affinity for Social Influence, Interpersonal Dynamics and Social Engineering, helping private companies test the security of their communications systems and working with law enforcement agencies before he was even old enough to drive.
Jordan has spent several years abroad in Europe and the developing world, including South America, Eastern Europe and the Middle East, and speaks several languages. He has also worked for various governments and NGOs overseas, traveled through war-zones and been kidnapped -twice. He’ll tell you; the only reason he’s still alive and kicking is because of his ability to talk his way into (and out of), just about any type of situation. Here at The Art of Charm, Jordan shares that experience, and the system borne as a result, with students and clients.
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Ok, so I just found out I am either a creeper, or, I am just repulsive. Women NEVER make, or maintain eye contact with me.
Yeah, just make it a point to go out and make eye contact with us people.
Actually, they probably do, and you don’t notice it.
-Jordan
I listened to the latest podcast with Mr. Coleman, and enjoyed much of it.
However, he got into some fairly murky, and heavily ideological area at the end when he began talking about marriage “statistics” and his clearly pro-marriage viewpoints.
Now look, I’m a fan of the show, and I clearly understand that this is just a guy spouting opinions on a podcast and not a “news” source.
But I suppose what a find troubling about this archaic way of thinking is not only that his statistics (which he may have derived from 3/10/2010 NY Times article on cohabitation, linked below), are not only flat out wrong, but adds to the further vilification of people who choose never to marry, or couples who have divorced.
Mr. Coleman states that “50% of people who live together first, never wind up getting married.” Forgetting the fact that I could find no evidence or source for this claim, if it is true, I think that’s wonderful!! That’s 50% of people who enjoyed the time they had together and realized that their relationship was not strong enough to take on the incredibly difficult step of marriage. They were able to dissolve their personal relationship without involving expensive lawyers or permission from the state (which only make breakups more acrimonious).
Mr. Coleman adds another stat that “70-80% of them will be divorced within 3-5 years.” I also could find no support for this, but wouldn’t the amount of years they spend as a couple prior to getting married skew this statistic?? For instance, if they cohabited for 7 years, and then were married for 3, they would have done better than the national average for marriage in the U.S.
Second, as the rate of marriage has declined steadily over the past 50 years for EVERYONE (see source below), it clearly means that cohabitating beforehand or not, likely has very little to do with it.
There are also other factors such as education, age and poverty that affect marriage statistics. Poverty often puts more stress on a relationship, and low-economic conditions often lead people to cohabit more often to share rent. As will young people, who are often not mature enough to handle a serious, long-term relationship, tend to cohabitate more often than other age groups.
Also, it is only a 6-point decline between prior cohabitators and non-cohabitators in terms of a marriage lasting 10 years. Not exactly a huge number.
The theory that people, who have been in a long-term, meaningful relationship, will simply give up on it “as soon as they hit a rough patch” or are in a “perceived relationship” because they’re not married, is simply nonsense.
As someone who deals with couples as well, I can tell you most long-term couples, married or not, will usually do everything they can to salvage a relationship they’ve put years into. Even if they’re miserable (an issue that never seems to crop up with the pro-marriage school of thought). Why? Because human beings are creatures of habit. We don’t leave jobs, residences, or relationships without giving it a lot of thought. If there’s anything that might make married couples “tough it out” a bit longer, is knowing they’ll have to endure the legal nightmare mentioned above.
The idea that we should encourage marriage, and therefore make it as hard as possible for people to end a relationship, is absurd. And I won’t even get into why the religious people push marriage more vigorously than do secular folk. Somehow, they see it as a divine rule from an invisible deity, as opposed to it’s true origin, which was for land/work contracts and protection between surfs and their feudal lords.
Simply put, we Americans tend to be very naive about marriage. We view it as a “natural” step in life; sort of like buying a house or a car. The average marriage in the U.S. today last approximately 7 years. We should be viewing marriages that go beyond a decade as an incredible feat; something awe-inspiring, and certainly not the norm. Some people will be lucky enough with their partners to pull it off, but most won’t. And that’s okay.
I say, marry or don’t marry. Cohabitate or don’t cohabitate. If you choose to have kids, love them with every fiber of your being, and provide as much structure for them as you can. But never stay in a unhappy relationship for their benefit, or anyone else’s. You’ll be doing them no favors.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/03/us/03marry.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/15/us/15census.html
GREAT comment John. I’m going to hit David with it and see what he says!
-Jordan
Excellent points, and I totally agree. Maybe Jordan should do a show on this topic.
Thanks Jordan,
Been listening to the podcast since the early days. Think you guys do a great job, and am sure you’ve helped a lot of guys out there.
I wish I’d had access to resources like this when I was 20 and making every mistake imaginable. lol. Especially being in NYC and LA; some of the toughest training grounds out there. But it all worked out.
Keep up the good work. Think your episodes with Xuma, Rob Kramer, the Eric Disco interview, the Askromeo Day 2 Tips, David Wygant, and Miss Jamie were among the strongest and most useful that I’ve heard on the podcast.
Thanks for the props man!
I contacted David and he will be posting his response soon, so look forward to that!
-Jordan
John Dee, anyone who puts that much time, effort and thought into a response deserves one in return. Thank you for your well thought out comments.
First, in fairness, Jordan and I taped a large number of podcasts the day we met, well over 20, and for each I did not do a thorough lead-in or cite every source to everything I said. That just doesn’t happen during the taping of interviews going at the pace we were churning them out.
Next, the statistics I cited were from my 25 years of personal work as a dating coach and speaker/entertainer through my experiences with thousands of personal clients and literally millions of live audience members and social media fans and followers on my Website/Facebook/Twitter/Linked In, not from some random study I read and regurgitated.
A very high percentage of my clients, who have lived with someone first, have never gone on to marry that person (for a myriad of reasons that we can all surmise). The percentage is probably much higher than 50%, but believe me it is at least that high. I am not a pick up artist. I don’t endorse those who are, and it is not who I am personally or professionally. Most of my clients are more interested in working on bettering themselves and working on their own strengths and weaknesses than in learning any type of strategy to help them pick up someone they aren’t even ready to date.
Most of my individual clients already have a very specific person (or type of person) in mind that they hope to date and are attempting to enter into a relationship with that person, not trying to learn how to enter a room and leave it with someone who plans to have sex with them or at least the means to end up there. I answered the questions I was asked that day to the best of my ability and within the parameters I set for myself as a person and professional.
I still maintain that a high percentage of my clients who have lived together first, end up divorcing/breaking up within about 5 years and honestly, in most cases, it doesn’t take that long. Somehow, the (sense of) freedom they felt and shared when they were living together, didn’t translate into staying satisfied and together married/partnered. Perhaps they married/committed out of obligation or fear or it seemed to be the next logical step, instead of unconditional and passionate love. Perhaps they felt trapped and wanted out or they found someone else in life or on line who was simply a more attractive option to them. Who knows. That would take a major study to figure out for sure.
John, you’re right, many factors affect marriage statistics and one that is escalating rapidly is Social Media. There are so many choices and so many options and an ease of communication on-line that escapes many people when they are attempting to meet someone face-to-face. We can friend, un-friend, wink, poke, prod, tease, flirt and hook up with such ease that it takes moments to enter into or end a “relationship.” Is it fostering a disposable mentality in people regarding relationships…maybe? Is it making marriages/partnerships stronger or seem to be a more exciting option, I don’t think so.
I am open to answering any direct questions either here on this blog and again I thank you for your contribution.
Why cant I download the last 2 episodes? I tend to listen to the Podcast on my bike and 3g/4g has shitty reception here.
What are you using to download? The iPhone app or your computer? The browser on your phone perhaps?
David, I appreciate your thoughtful response.
I think we can both agree that the most important thing is to accept any and all lifestyles and beliefs as “normal”, provided they are based in honesty and not harming other people; married/non-married, straight/gay, swinger/monogamist, believer/non-believer.
As has been reported quite a bit lately, the concept of marriage has been evolving quite rapidly over the past couple of decades. And I find it refreshing that many people are finally accepting that monogamy is indeed a choice, and a very difficult one. However human insecurity and jealousy makes non-monogamous relationships an even tougher choice.
My main concern is that we still live in a culture which seems to encourage marriage as the “right path,” and other lifestyles as somehow a lesser option; even (and especially) if that option is an “open-marriage.”
I have seen many men and women pressured into marriage, not only by others, but by their own ideas of having to achieve a certain “mantle” of adulthood (this pressure is still more prevalent in women than men).
I have also seen divorced couples carrying around enormous amounts of guilt for having “failed.”
At the end of the day, my belief is that if you are lucky enough to meet someone who you are head-over-heels for, and who is also single at the moment, you should decide on your level of commitment and make a go at it. Work at the relationship to the best of your ability, and if or when it comes to it’s natural ending point, walk away; not with guilt, but thrilled that you got the opportunity to share your life with that person for that period of time. When I hear people say that they feel as if they’ve “wasted” the past few years of their life because it didn’t end in a marriage, I find that a bit disturbing.
On a personal note, I do not consider myself a pickup artist either, and I may not fit the traditional demographic of AJ and Jordan’s listeners. What mainly attracted me to this podcast years ago was that some of the guests were advocating new avenues of meeting people. And that’s what I found fascinating.
Women are traditionally the “choosers.” And since most women choose men based on their level of comfort and familiarity with them, men had to simply wait and hope that they got introduced to a woman through a mutual friend, or got seated next to her at work/school. (social networking may be changing this a bit.)
My experience in college was that if someone “got me the introduction,” I usually had no problem taking it from there. But without the introduction, I was cooked.
Unfortunately, we Americans aren’t nearly as spontaneous as our RomCom movies would suggest (the ones that show absolutely gorgeous women, [who are always miraculously single], virtually throwing themselves at schlubby men who are just hanging out in a bar or a bookstore [I'm looking at you, Judd Apatow])
So the podcast seemed to be giving men the tools to finally be able to meet the beautiful woman across the room; the one he didn’t have a connection to but that made his heart skip a beat. He didn’t have to wait for the cosmic luck of the draw to present someone in his “network.”
I’m willing to bet (though I could be wrong), if you polled all your clients about their ex-girlfiends/boyfriends/spouses, over 80% of them would say they met them through a friend, or at work/school. (Personally, I may have spent my 20s as a virgin if I didn’t date the woman a worked with.)
But very few would say they met in an airport terminal or while waiting for the crosstown bus, or at a party where they knew no one. At least that’s been my experience. And I just happen to find that dreadfully limiting. I also tend to think it’s why so many relationships wind up unfulfilled. It’s not always fireworks and butterflies in the belly. Sometimes it simply comes down to who’s in your circle and who isn’t.
The “Abundance Theory” only works if you have the tools to meet people outside of your sphere.
Norbert- I had the same problem. I dug through the HTML, found the original link to download it. If you follow this link: http://itunes.pickuppodcast.com/Pickuppodcast133DavidColemanInterview.mp3
you should be able to download the audio file. It’s probably hard to download it because the media player doesn’t have a download feature and the link isn’t obvious, it’s covered by the media player. Anyways, that’s how I got it done. Let me know if that helps or not.
Jordan- you could probably fix this for everybody by posting the mp3 both with the audio player like you have now and without it as a straight link, would be helpful for those that don’t want to dig through HTML (myself included). Anyways, hopefully that’s helpful.
Yo! Not sure at ALL why there’s no direct download link. It’s in all the other eps. Will fix asap!
-Jordan
The download links should be fixed now. Thanks for your patience!
Hey, btw, in the episode David mentioned that neither of you guys are 10s, objectively, but you still make it work. I was wondering who a 10 would be? Maybe somebody like that british prince that just got married, prince william (I think that’s his name?) Just curious what you would say about that
Hey Patrick,
Basically he was just saying that I’m a good-looking guy but not a guy with model good-looks, yet I still have attractive traits. It’s not something I took personally, of course. I think it’d have been more weird if he said that I was.
-Jordan
got it. so he was just referring to looks not status. that makes sense I guess. thanks for the quick reply
Right. He’s not familiar with our status stuff. Only us here at The Art of Charm do we use the 6/7/8/10 status designation, so if you hear those numbers somewhere else, they’re either referring only to looks or they borrowed it from us.
-Jordan
Good (short) article in yesterday’s Daily Beast, on cohabitation.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/04/18/the-case-for-cohabiting.html