Dear Readers,
We were recently told about a new website that’s sprung up: TheArtofCharmScam.com. On this website, its anonymous creator (who does not say that he has personally taken any bootcamps or received any coaching from AoC) puts forth rhetoric about The Art of Charm being a scam. We found it good for a laugh, and you may too (note: we did not make this website!)
The concerns raised by this nameless critic point towards common questions and misconceptions about AoC and our programs, so we’ll offer clarification, re-state our company’s practices and values, and give a glimpse of where we’re going in the future. Let’s start with the nitty-gritty.
How Do Payment Plans Work?
We began offering payment plan options to make our coaching programs more attainable for everyone. Many of our clients are students or recent grads, so a “layaway plan” for the program was developed. We suggest $500/month, as this will purchase a week-long program after 8 months. We want the payment plans to work for you, and many students choose payments less than this amount.
What about the $125 Processing Fee?
The problem with payment plans is that things change over time. People change their goals, often become malaise and forget about things which once made them passionate (like improving their lifestyle, dating, and social life.)
Some potential clients are not really sure what they want or need, and can be sold on any number of coaching programs from anyone who sounds credible. Ultimately, these people don’t make good Art of Charm Alumni, and they may be fired as clients… which is all good, until they enact a credit-card chargeback. We won’t bore you with the details of what happens then and why that is problematic for us.
Additionally, we don’t charge interest on our payment plans, but the fee helps to buffer this. Consider the alternative–paying off a credit card with 15-20% APR!
Our solution to these hurdles is threefold:
- Offer 30 days of coaching before each program over the phone and email and 30 days after after the live training
- Use RightSignature for legally-binding electronic document signing
- Have an administrative assistant keep in touch with each client and modify payment plans as necessary
This solution is great, except that it adds a bunch of new overhead to the business (more subscribers to our email newsletter, additional staff to schedule and reschedule coaching calls, new services that we need to purchase, and the typical payment plan can run 8-12 payments). Put it together and you get your $125 fee.
Here’s some quick math to show how it’s still cheaper than a credit card:
The next concern is very interesting, since it’s really questioning the value we provide.
What does coaching with The Art of Charm include?
On this blog, for the first time ever, we’re going to reveal the break-down of exactly what you’re paying for when you take coaching with us. Since our week-long coaching program is the most popular, we’ll use it as our example.
What’s included?
- 5 In-Field Sessions – A full night or half a day of live coaching in a social arena, plus our review – $500 each
- 10 Classroom Seminars – Three hours of our curriculum or answering your questions. – $150 each
- 30-day before & after coaching system – Missions & exercises for your to complete on your own time – $150
- 2 Phone Coaching sessions – One before and one after the program – $200 each
- Lodging – Your stay at the fabulous Art of Charm Headquarters is included – $750 for the entire programTotal Cost “a la carte” = $4550
This is exactly what you get with your $3,997 Art of Charm Coaching Program.
Our critic is suggesting that other programs may actually provide a better value, but I personally (as Alex) challenge this notion. I ask these questions about their value (and if you have experience with these other companies’ coaching, please leave feedback in the comments below):
- What does each program offer (how many days, on what subjects, what type of field work, what’s the schedule?)
- Are the classes taught by full-time or part-time instructors? (All Art of Charm Bootcamps are taught by full-time employees)
- Who are the instructors that will be actually be teaching any given program?
And one more general question: - Why do you pay more for one brand of product/service over generic/off-brand?
What if I change my mind?
As stated on The Art of Charm Website, all funds you’ve put towards coaching with us can be used in whatever form you like, for up to a year. Phone coaching is the most popular option.
Payment Plans Available
We offer payment plan options and financing upon request. All programs require a minimum NON-REFUNDABLE deposit of $500.00 USD to reserve your seat. All payments must be received by The Art of Charm, Inc. prior to the first day of your program and require a $125 processing fee.
About Our Salespeople
Unfortunately, you can’t please everyone. When we were starting this business, we called the other companies in our niche offering coaching, to see what their process was like. We found the majority were unprofessional, making it difficult to get in touch and get signed up.
Passion is contagious. That’s why if you call our office (the correct phone number is 917.720.4104, by the way!) and speak with our Program Coordinator, Berto, you’ll be able to tell he’s excited about what he has to offer.
Honestly, we have heard complaints about aggressive and dishonest salespeople unfortunately within The Art of Charm. As a countermeasure, we’ve changed our internal policies… but we’ve also gone so far as to fire certain former employees. This should serve to illustrate our dedication to providing the highest-quality service possible. If you have further concerns or comments about our employees, please leave them in the comments below or e-mail info[at]theartofcharm[dot]com.
Our Company Values
Offer Value First, for Free – Anyone should be able to see this in our actions. We’ve already provided 100+ hours of content with industry leaders. We offer free classes for qualified individuals in Los Angeles, and have provided the same service in New York City (want more info? call 917.720.4104)
You should be able to try before you buy. Know what you’re signing up for. If you don’t like our coaching, then someone else may be better suited for your needs. Our programs are not for everyone, since each person has different goals in mind.
Transparency and Accessibility – You know where to find us. If you don’t, you haven’t checked our Yelp page or Googled us. Our phone number is clearly published on The Art of Charm’s website.
Hopefully, you also know what we stand for. Want to ask a question? Go right ahead. Call us. Skype us. Facebook us. Email us. Twitter us. If you don’t want to take our word for it, come visit the forums and ask our fans & alumni. Are other companies, instructors, and communities this accessible?
This was one of the things that drew me (personally, as Alex) to AoC. I took my program and for months afterwards I was corresponding with the same dudes whose podcast I downloaded, and the same guys who coached me and told me to stop being a Pussy 
. In fact, I kept in touch until I came to work here. But that’s another story. If you’d like to find out more about us or contact us individually, check out the “Who We Are” section on our site.
We encourage you to think about the values of a company before you come do training with us. Their values should be the same as the ones you hope to cultivate. Again, if you have any questions, please voice them below in the comments.
How We Got Here, and Where We’re Going Next
Pickup Podcast was born, like most great manly ideas, in a bar after heavy drinking. Here’s the story, as Jordan tells it:
AJ and I had been teaching for months on end, several times a week, usually for free. We usually just dropped some ‘attraction science’ on interested guys (whom we met in class at university or through the bar scene) in exchange for a few rounds of drinks. Many an intoxicated night later, we were wondering what the point was. Were we simply going to drink away our graduate school woes until we got real jobs? Would we even make it that far?
We wanted to create something that would change people’s lives, not just teach them how to meet women and get phone numbers. We knew we needed to go beyond the basics of dating and get down to the root science of social interaction so that people would get hooked on improving themselves and the lives of those around them. Lofty goals for a podcast born bar-side at 1am on a Tuesday.
Months passed and podcast listenership grew steadily. At this point, the demand for coaching as a result of the show’s popularity started to take off. That’s when we hired Johnny and founded The Art of Charm. Looking back on the past years, it’s amazing to think about how we even got here. It’s been quite a whirlwind.
Our Mission Is To…
Introduce you to teachers whose ideas, stories and mindsets are so powerful that just hearing them will inspire change in you.
Cultivate and nurture in every student a passion for personal development and growth.
Give you an alternative to the ‘professional guru’ marketplace. We know that no single person has all the answers, and we’ll show you that the best way to learn and grow is to absorb knowledge and wisdom from a diverse group of teachers and mentors who are willing to share not only their expertise but their experiences and personal breakthroughs.
Encourage and enable you to live an awesome, fulfilling lifestyle -the one you truly deserve.
Help you concieve a vision of your future self so powerful that you can’t get there alone. Then, we want to give you a map and an team of incredible mentors to help you get there.
Spark an identity-level shift in your beliefs about what is possible for you to experience and achieve.
What’s Your Next Move?
Do you think The Art of Charm is a Scam?
Feel free to add to the discussion below. Keep it above the belt (that is, minimal cursing and flaming) and be cool like Fonzie. Leave your experiences, positive or negative. Also, look out for some more insight into our companies (Pickup Podcast and The Art of Charm) in the near future.
Article by
Alex Weber was born in NYC, raised in New Jersey, and studied Computer Science at Ithaca College. After hanging out with a bunch of anti-social computer programmers for a few years, Alex discovered social dynamics and began his studies independently
{ 17 comments… read them below or add one }
That Website is awesome! I took 2 bootcamps and consider it to be the best investment of my life! If the author’s little brother can get more ass thatn Jordan, than maybe you should hire him as a coach ; ) ….too funny.
Yeah, but it’s still unbelievably and outrageously expensive. College students? Really? You think a college student has $500 a month to throw around, let alone 8 times? what planet are you living on?
In context, that’s the cost of a whole semester of college at a big 10 university. For 1 week of training.
We don't market specifically to college students, although plenty of students take our courses. In fact, most of them report learning a LOT more here at The Art of Charm than they do in Anthropology 101, which, let's be honest, costs a LOT more than tuition at AoC. The price of a program, you must admit in fairness, is nowhere NEAR the cost of tuition of a semester at a big 10 university. lol
I find it hard — impossible– to believe that a website/company that has provided dozens upon dozens upon dozens upon dozens of amazing, life changing content can be deceptive in any way.
As I remember Sean Stephenson saying, one of the reasons why these products are expensive is because that’s the only way they can give value. In other words, this should be seen as an investment. If it was a cheap ass program, then people would probably not appreciate it and take it seriously as much.
I don’t have the money to afford AOC programs (I wish I had the greens), but I still have learned an incredibly amount of information from them for free. Listen to the pickup podcast and then tell me I’m wrong.
Keep the good work AOC.
This is by far one of the best Web sites out there about this stuff. The podcast itself is by far one of the best podcasts out there about this stuff. To put it in context with the industry the Art of Charm operates in, go to David DeAngelo’s site and see how much he charges for DVDs where he interviews essentially the same people AJ and Jordan do. Sure, the coaching is expensive (and I agree that the claim that 500 bucks a month is affordable for the average college kid is pretty outrageous) but it’s about the same that you would spend sitting a therapist’s couch. Or on a divorce lawyer.
Hey guys, what’s up!
Just wanted to quickly agree with most of the posters here. Yes, the free content is awesome, and worth a ton.
I do want to say that the cost is just ill-advised. The only way to find out is for you guys to be honest and look at your balance sheet, and the number of customers. $500/month. Come on guys, that’s more than rent for a college student. I could get cable, an IPhone along with the monthly service, and a car with insurance. $4,000 overall? Are there people out there signing up for this?
Let’s put all this in more perspective. I bought my first 2 cars (Mitsubishi Galants) for a little less than $3,000 each time, 70k miles. They still drive great, and look okay. With a Bachelor of Science now, onto a Beemer. I understand that walking around with a beautiful girl is priceless for us men, on every level. But for that cost while people have free options, it is just weird. Reinvesting $2,000, which is half your cost, will get a high school kid to an Associate Degree in a community college, half way towards a Bachelor. Increasing his lifetime earning power from the 100ks to Millions. The Bachelor itself can get you to earn 10 of millions or more (just avoid choosing a Liberal Art major).
All of this to say that the few guys who sign for your programs will rightfully regret, and charge-back. And nobody wants to deal with that.
And a $125 processing fee. Wow. That’s just… I mean, are you guys trying to get targetted by some congressman?
Remember, we are attempting to teach people information, albeit scattered, *that already exists* (men and women haven’t changed since people started posting on the web). All this to teach a goal they could reach themselves *if they get out there, and practice, practice, and practice intelligently while checking the invaluable content on the internet* (with some common-sense).
The free content is awesome though guys. I love your interviews, and I enjoy the interviewers personality: non-patronizing, open to others, flexible in their beliefs, and funny at times.
Good luck with everything bros!
Guys, this is your website. I, along with other people have noticed that you guys deleted the previous guy comment. Think it was ItalianJoe or smthg. I’m contemplating buying this package with the military discount but what the heck is happening here?
I don’t understand the “scam” thing. What’s the scam? The price for everything is told to you up front. I personally can’t ever imagine spending four grand on a week of training for anything. But I also don’t ever see myself buying an expensive sports car. Are sports car manufacturers scamming us? Should we all go to the Ferrari Web site and heckle them about their prices? The business they’ve chosen to run is a high-end training program for guys who want to get better with women. It’s their right to do that if they want.
The only caveat is the college kid thing, which I can tell is bugging everybody. It also seems to be the specific reason that Pat dude put up that Web site. Even though it’s legal if they’re over 18, it’s ethically dubious to market such an expensive program to impressionable people who obviously can’t afford it. THAT’S where the Art of Charm is running into trouble and where many American businesses have run into trouble recently.
@Ryan:
Not sure what you’re referring to. Maybe refresh your browser. “ItalianJob”’s comment is still there. We don’t edit or censor the blog comments or even the forum. Criticism is considered by us to be helpful feedback, even if the delivery is off sometimes.
@Italianjob:
Most AoC programs are sold out, and many people come back for advanced programs. In fact, we’ve been told by business advisors that we should actually increase prices. I won’t get into the value offered by an AoC program, because I don’t need to here, but what I will say is that many people end up with promotions, finding a girlfriend or wife, getting raises, increasing their own business, etc, after an AoC program. Comparing it to a college education is apples & oranges. Besides, MY college education cost well over $100,000.
As for chargebacks, we don’t get those. In fact, we haven’t had one in a long time now. NOBODY who has come through a program has ever done it, just guys who have backed out at the last second. Even those are few. Not sure where you’re getting the idea that only a few guys sign up for AoC programs. We often teach 15 students each month, sometimes even more than that. That doesn’t include our other coaching (phone coaching, etc).
The processing fee is a result of the fact that 1) you’re not being charged ANY interested on your payment plan, whereas we’re rendering services. ANYTHING else for which you receive financing will charge you interest or a premium WELL above the percentage that you pay for a payment plan at AoC. Further, we have someone working here FULL-TIME whose job it is primarily to keep payments processing, remind people that payments are due, help guys work around payment issues, etc. This costs us extra money, and it’s only fair that those costs are passed down to those who opt for a payment plan, as opposed to being passed down to everyone in the form of higher prices.
I agree that much of the curriculum are things that one could, in theory, spend years learning on their own and a few more years practicing. However, we’re taking years, possibly a decade or more, off the learning curve. There’s value there. If not, then your argument above about a college education is rather moot as well, considering that anything you learned is college is available on the internet or in books as well. Yet, nobody will argue that there’s no value in a college education.
@Jason: Not sure why people think we’re marketing this program exclusively towards college kids. Most people who take programs from The Art of Charm are employed full-time, and when college students do enroll, their payment plans are almost always WELL below $500/month. Perhaps the post itself was confusing there, but I thought I’d clear that up.
Thanks again for all the feedback guys, very much appreciated!
-Jordan
FYI, there’s also a discussion thread on this topic here:
http://hub.pickuppodcast.com/showthread.php?t=6277
Jordan,
Your comparisons to interest charges don't make any sense because they aren't receiving financing for anything. The can't take the course until they've paid in full.
Why anyone in their right mind would go for this payment plan is beyond me. Why not just save the money by doing a monthly lay-away themselves to their own account? If they were to change their mind, then the money would still be theirs, and they would be earning interest on the money.
The fact that you are implying that this is a "financing" plan is a total scam, in my view. If anything, they are financing you buy sending you money well before services are rendered. Nice try, dude.
TightGame, thanks for your comment.
This "financing" is indeed more like a lay-away plan. The payment plan is something that we were asked about, and has helped a bunch of guys come through programs who might otherwise not have the discipline to save money.
I searched for a definition of "financing" and they suggest that it's about purchasing something and paying off the difference. Since we have people purchase their programs well before they attend on a regular basis, this seems to constitute financing.
Regardless, thanks for adding to the discussion, and we'll continue to offer payment plans for those who want them.
I tried to post this as a comment on the scam blog, but I doubt if the author will allow it to post:
Honestly man, your "insider" admitted it himself: the bootcamp is good. That's the bottom line. If you are worried about how they are running the business and whether or not Jordan is successfully suing anyone, then have fun standing on the sidelines. Nobody cares about Ben stealing money or Adam stealing clients. Nobody cares if Berto is a pushy salesman. If he is too pushy, then don't buy a package!
I took a bootcamp last summer when they were still in NYC. I'm not gonna lie, AJ & Jordan were not all that friendly. Whatever. I'll give you three names: Johnny Dzubak, Kim Ellington, Alex Weber. These are the instructors. These are the people that matter. Find me someone who says anything bad about these guys/girl. They are incredible. Bottom line.
As for the prices. Yeah, they charge a lot. If you want Mehow's shit go pay Mehow. If you want Social Man then go pay Social Man. AoC has a lot of people paying their rates so they must be doing something right. Charging a lot of money is not a "scam" it's just "expensive".
If you want to tear down AoC for their price and their refund policy that is fine. But like your insider said, the bootcamp is good.
Hi Everyone,
After getting to know you all in person I can confidently say that this website is nonsense, but I still found it a bit disturbing. It might have put me off if I hadn’t been familiar with the Art of Charm and had been shopping around for programs.
I must say though, the blogger who admits he got fired because he just went into the office to check his Facebook and chat to the female interns doesn’t do much for his credibility!
And whatever else they may say, the authors of this website at least say that the bootcamps were good!
Prices may seem high, but are probably not unreasonable, given that during the bootcamps you have a more or less one-to-one ratio between participants and coaches, and you also have a number of salaries to pay, plus a lot of other overheads. (I dare not imagine the rent in places like Hollywood Boulevard and the Manhattan Financial District!)
Anyway, if it turns your life around, the price of a seminar is a bargain. It’s the price of a dozen expensive dinner dates or a few bottles of champagne in a disreputable part of town! And improving your game will make a lot better impression on a girl than having a car to show off! Besides, there is usually some sort of promotional offer going on.
As for the payment plan, suffice it to say that the Art of Charm was more than accommodating, and determined to give me the possibility to take a program. I did not find Berto in any way a pushy salesman on the phone. In a way he was quite insistent, but it was not the hard sell, more a matter of being enthusiastic and making every effort to make the program a possibility for me.
As for the other various allegations made, I have no proof one way or the other, but I’m more than a little skeptical, and far more inclined to believe Jordan’s excellent rebuttal on the forum!
During my time with the Art of Charm crew I never saw any of you behave in a less than exemplary fashion. Every new business is beset by some mistakes and teething problems, but I do not believe for one moment that the Art of Charm crew I met would set out to scam anyone. You are all exceptional people who set very high standards of professional and personal conduct for yourselves and anyone who works with you. I am sure that anyone who was fired was fired for a very good reason.
The author of the site is most likely either a disgruntled ex-employee or a rival out to discredit you. This guy will probably soon put up a website with two paragraphs of tips followed by 10 pages of advertising describing in painstaking detail what he’ll teach his customers, but without actually sharing any real information until they buy the product!
If you guys were a bunch of scam artists, would you share all your knowledge for free on the podcast or radio show, or give up lucrative law or IT careers to follow this vocation? Or go out of your way to let motivated people take a program despite difficult financial circumstances?
Finally, as for the allegation that the Art of Charm couldn't care less about you once you take the program, I know that you all make a big effort to keep in touch with alumni. (But I’m sure you wouldn’t be so keen to keep in touch with the authors of this website, and I’m also sure that you have better things to do than to bother spying on them!) While we were certainly doing business, at all times I felt among friends and would be delighted to participate in another program next time the Art of Charm crosses the pond.
Laserbeam
Have to agree with the guys from the scam website… Art of Charm is definitely overpriced compared to other companies that offer similar (week-long programs). I too have found the sales people from AoC to be very pushy, and that $500 non-refundable deposit is BS for sure…
In reply to Teri – Just read a newsletter from Real Social Dynamics for example – a weekend program with them costs $1500 or $2000, which translates into at least $3000-4000 for a week of training.
In any event, I would rather pay more for a program I know is going to be good quality than risk a smaller (but still appreciable) sum of money for an uncertain result. I have seen mixed reviews for many companies running programs (and incidentally, unlike what the scam website blogger says, the Art of Charm crew I talked to were very reluctant to badmouth anyone or single out anyone in the Community for criticism).
I trust you guys won't take this as encouragement to put up prices!
Laserbeam
Teri,
How many hours do you get of training in those other week long programs? Do they include accommodation? What's the coach:student ratio?
Also, who did you speak with here at The Art of Charm when you were discussing your program, and when did you call us?
-Jordan